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Cheapest Hammer in your collection

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Cheapest Hammer in your collection
« on: December 29, 2015, 02:14:49 PM »
 

29aholic

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Well I am here, now back to the conversation ;)
 

Re: Cheapest Hammer in your collection
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2015, 02:48:35 PM »
 

Jeff M

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Some background:

I Said:

To be fair, I think there are a number of reasons for that:

First, and the most likely, is that a lot of people (again, not aiming this at ANYONE directly, and perhaps no one in this thread is guilty of this at all) say "My rifle is 1/4 MOA all day as long as I do my part".  That last part..  That's what usually gives it away.  Even if they really are worthy of winning a benchrest match, they somehow are quick to say "Oh, that flyer was my fault."  No, it was the rifle, it happens.  Just admit that a better rifle would help, but you can't or don't want to spend the money on it.  Deer hunters and other "recreational" gun owners are generally guilty of this issue.  "I've shot so many deer, you could stand at 400 yards and I'll ask you what eye you want to be shot in" - something I overheard on a range one day.

 

The other reason (though I suppose equally likely?) is that there are a LOT of new guys getting into the "serious rifle shooter" category.  I wonder how many people join this forum alone on a daily basis?  I'm sure it's not a number to scoff at.  Even if it's only 1000 people a year, that's three new guys PER DAY.  In comparison to many, many guys on here, I'm relatively new myself.  Having spent the majority of my life in NY, I only moved to a free state a few years ago.  I've only been shooting rifle since 2012.  Sure, I'm a quick study, and I'm willing to put in the time, effort, and money, and I'm competitive - at the local level.  We'll see how I do at PRS matches this year.  LOL   In any event, the issue with the newer shooters, like me, is that they've only been around the new guns.  When was the last time Remington made a 700 that you could walk into your local gun shop and buy, in any caliber, in any model, that was capable of shooting bugholes?  I've NEVER seen one!  That doesn't mean they don't exist, but if they do, they certainly haven't been produced in recent years.  Every one that I've seen, and owned, they couldn't do it.  I spent I don't know how much money on a chassis, and a trigger, and fine tuning handloads, and expensive Berger bullets, and blah blah blah, and that thing was STILL only about a 3/4 minute gun on it's BEST day, when all the stars and planets aligned.  On any given day, it might produce a 3/4 minute group, and then right after produce a 1.25 minute group.  No, it wasn't me, other guys shot it, etc.  But all of them  - a buddy spent the coin and got a fancy stainless 5R in 308 - did it shoot better than my AAC-SD?  I guess, but not by much.  He'd go to the range, and get 4 rounds into a ragged hole, and the 5th would be JUST far enough off that there's be a LITTLE bit of paper left between the holes.  Measure it up, and it's still about 3/4 minute.  That was typical for that rifle, but then it would also occasionally throw out that 1 minute group, or that 1.25 minute group.  It was more consistently better, but in no way would I (or he) call it a 3/4 minute rifle.

The same thing with Savage rifles.  A buddy was so proud of his 12LRP or whatever the hell it was.  It could shoot SO well, it was a great gun, blah blah blah.  Granted - this is a VERY small sample size (but again - newer shooters, remember?  We haven't been on the range for 20 years), but that thing didn't shoot any better than my AAC-SD did.  Didn't matter which one of us got behind it, or if someone else got behind it that we knew was a great shot, already owned a custom, etc - same results.

So..  Having said all that - was there a time, once upon a time - where you could go and buy a factory rifle that would SHOOT?  Sure.  Someone above even said "they used to have....  I kick myself for selling it...."  The wording of the post made it sound like that was some time ago (not last year).  I'm not going to discount the possibility that once upon a time you could buy a rifle that came from the factory and was a shooter, just like I'm not going to discount the possibility of alien life that might be 6 solar systems away.  All I'm going to say about it is that I've never seen it.  For better or for worse, the guys that are guilty of offenses falling into the first category have the unintended side effect of making guys that actually DO have a factory rifle that can shoot sound less credible than they may otherwise be.

 

But then, I don't know anyone with 20 year old rifles, either, so there's that.

 

 

 

I guess more to the point of the post, though, is that through a combination of trading stuff I already owned, and picking up certificates on a prize table, the following rifle is currently being built for my better half to use to get started in competition:

PTG-trued stainless 700 action

one piece, fluted PTG bolt, small firing pin, M16 extractor

Hawk Hill barrel, finished at 24", chambered 6 Dasher

XLR Element Tactical

Gen 1 Razor 5-20

Huber trigger

 

By the time it's all said and done, actual out of pocket cost for the above will be somewhere around $2500.  For a semi-custom, including glass, I'd say that's about as cheap as you can get it.  Is it a hammer?  I'm sure it will be, the gunsmith knows what he's doing, sponsors and shoots on a PRS team that all shoot his rifles, etc.  I'll update in spring once it gets here and the weather warms up enough to shoot it.  :)
Every time you make a typo, the errorists win.
 

Re: Cheapest Hammer in your collection
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2015, 02:49:08 PM »
 

Jeff M

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29aholic said:

You have a valid point and I agree with pretty much all of it. I am old enough that VS that was made in the late 70's was only about 6-7yrs old when I owned it, it would be 40 now. I also had a 60's vintage VS in 6mm and with that gun it would shoot factory ammo sometimes into the 2's but would not shoot a handload in less than 3/4" no matter how hard I tried.

To the extent I agree with your post, we get back to the Archer vs Bow (or Arrow) discussion hence why you see "When I do my part". I just spent a ton of money finishing my first build and quite honestly I probably wasted my money. Will the gun shoot like a laser? Probably, I didn't spare much expense. Will I be able "To do my part" and do the gun justice? Probably not. I don't sleep for shit, drink too much coffee during the day, too much beer at night, don't have the time or money to shoot the 50-100rds every weekend, and basically lack focus. In all reality the stock SPS was probably good enough, but I have delusions of actually getting back into it. And, for steel it really doesn't have to shoot bugholes.

we'll see, I will post pics when I get it back

BTW my other hammer is a 20's vintage 52 Winchester that will average right at a 1/2 moa or slightly larger (sometimes smaller) at 100yds for 6 consecutive 5 shot groups...When I do my part ;)
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Re: Cheapest Hammer in your collection
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2015, 02:55:18 PM »
 

Jeff M

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29aholic said:

You have a valid point and I agree with pretty much all of it. I am old enough that VS that was made in the late 70's was only about 6-7yrs old when I owned it, it would be 40 now. I also had a 60's vintage VS in 6mm and with that gun it would shoot factory ammo sometimes into the 2's but would not shoot a handload in less than 3/4" no matter how hard I tried.

To the extent I agree with your post, we get back to the Archer vs Bow (or Arrow) discussion hence why you see "When I do my part". I just spent a ton of money finishing my first build and quite honestly I probably wasted my money. Will the gun shoot like a laser? Probably, I didn't spare much expense. Will I be able "To do my part" and do the gun justice? Probably not. I don't sleep for shit, drink too much coffee during the day, too much beer at night, don't have the time or money to shoot the 50-100rds every weekend, and basically lack focus. In all reality the stock SPS was probably good enough, but I have delusions of actually getting back into it. And, for steel it really doesn't have to shoot bugholes.

we'll see, I will post pics when I get it back

BTW my other hammer is a 20's vintage 52 Winchester that will average right at a 1/2 moa or slightly larger (sometimes smaller) at 100yds for 6 consecutive 5 shot groups...When I do my part ;)

I wish I had been into guns that far back.  I wish I moved out of NY sooner, to a state that wasn't so restrictive.  But alas..

There is definitely some merit to the "archer vs arrow" theory, and I don't discount that.

But, for every guy that says "It's the archer not the arrow", my first thought is always "If we took the top two finishers in the PRS from last season, gave one of them a custom, and gave the other an off-the-shelf Remington 700, what do you think would happen?"

Yes, the shooter has to put in some work, but to say that the equipment doesn't also play a significant role is disingenuous, IMO.
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Re: Cheapest Hammer in your collection
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2015, 03:07:14 PM »
 

29aholic

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Well I said I'd post pics of the new rifle. And, it is a hammer


Harder to post pics than I thought.

Turns out I can still shoot a little

« Last Edit: February 19, 2016, 10:58:53 AM by 29aholic »
 

Re: Cheapest Hammer in your collection
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2015, 03:21:52 PM »
 

Jeff M

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Well I said I'd post pics of the new rifle. And, it is a hammer


Harder to post pics than I thought.

Turns out I can still shoot a little

Well, well!  That's a nice looking stick!

Specs?
Every time you make a typo, the errorists win.
 

Re: Cheapest Hammer in your collection
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2015, 03:30:11 PM »
 

29aholic

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Well I said I'd post pics of the new rifle. And, it is a hammer


Harder to post pics than I thought.

Turns out I can still shoot a little

Well, well!  That's a nice looking stick!

Specs?

Specs: Built by Mark Williams (AKA Raven 6) of Raven Rifles in Pulaski VA
Remington 700 G-Prefix action blue printed by Raven 6. This was one of the first SPS Tactical Rifles.
Schneider M40 contour barrel 1-11 twist finished at 22" from the front of the lug by Raven
Trued lug
HS Precision stock bedded by Raven
PTG Stealth M-5 DBM
Leupold MK4 base and rings
Scope is a MK4 LR/T with the TS 29X1 reticle
Cerakote by Raven, stock is Patriot Brown and metal is Troy Coyote Tan
« Last Edit: February 19, 2016, 11:01:40 AM by 29aholic »
 

Re: Cheapest Hammer in your collection
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2015, 05:34:48 PM »
 

greenlightjay

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I bought a Ruger precision rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor and put a cheaper vortex scope on it, I have a Little Bastard muzzle brake coming on Monday, then I can try my handloads to see what the rifle likes, then I will be ready for instruction and training. Jay ( 4th from the right, back row)
 

Re: Cheapest Hammer in your collection
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2015, 05:52:22 PM »
 

SendIt

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What caliber is that Stick?
 

Re: Cheapest Hammer in your collection
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2015, 07:06:28 PM »
 

SFS Anne

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My cheapest rifle was my first gun in 2006 - Savage lefthanded .22 with a stock my husband made out of 2x6s. At the time I was just beginning to shoot and told him we couldn't spend $. Let's just say it could make out to 200 yds or so with nominal accuracy. BUT it did the trick to get me going on the sport. Thousands of dollars and multiple guns later, I would say it was a decent investment.  :D  I'll try to find photo proof.

Current Match Rifle Specs:
Weight - 16 # scoped BUT balances PERFECTLY and no intention to downscale
6.5 SLR on Sage Flats Trident Fluted Action (Defiance sourced)
Timney 510 Trigger
Benchmark med palma fluted barrel finished to 26.5" at 1:8 twist
AICS 2.0 Folding Stock with Victor Grips
Badger bolt handle
Vortex Gen 2 EBR (Mil, First Focal)
Supressed Armament System 7" ti


« Last Edit: December 29, 2015, 07:23:06 PM by SFS Anne »
 

Re: Cheapest Hammer in your collection
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2015, 07:27:46 PM »
 

Raptor

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I am old enough to have owned an original VS Remington in 308 and also a Remington VLS in a 260. Both were an honest .5+ guns. By this I mean when I went out and shot five 5 shot groups the average would be .5 something for all 5 groups added together for that gun. I wore both of them out and still have both actions. One now is a 6SLR and the other is still a 308 with a Pac Nor super match barrel in a McMillan stock. It has been re barreled twice since new. The 260 is on its 4th barrel. Two 260s, one 6XC and now a 6SLR still in the original HS stock.

After I shot the 260 out I had it re barreled with a Pac Nor super match and it was a .6+ gun no matter what I did. The next barrel was a kreiger and it was a damn hammer. I now have a love hate relationship with the 260. I think they are to "Picky" for my taste. I now have a 6.5 Creedmoor that I am getting rung out and it looks like it will be a good shooter.

Looking forward to the new sight and meeting some of you guys. Unlike most of you I am on the down hill side of my shooting carrier. I used to shoot the D&L shoots in Gillette Wyoming and a couple of the Sniper Hide matches. But I am pushing 70 now so I have slowed down a bit but did shoot the Wyoming Tactical match this year with my son in law. I had to get in shape since its cross country and at around 5000ft and in July and hot plus you pack everything with you!!  We finished 10th out of 30+ teams with him dragging my old ass over hill an dale. Ha
« Last Edit: December 29, 2015, 07:31:46 PM by Raptor »
 

Re: Cheapest Hammer in your collection
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2015, 07:30:15 PM »
 

Jeff M

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I am old enough to have owned an original VS Remington in 308 and also a Remington VLS in a 260. Both were an honest .5+ guns. By this I mean when I went out and shot five 5 shot groups the average would be .5 something for all 5 groups added together for that gun. I wore both of them out and still have both actions. One now is a 6SLR and the other is still a 308 with a Pac Nor super match barrel in a McMillan stock. It has been re barreled twice since new. The 260 is on its 4th barrel. Two 260s, one 6XC and now a 6SLR still in the original HS stock.

After I shot the 260 out I had it re barreled with a Pac Nor super match and it was a .6+ gun no matter what I did. The next barrel was a kreiger and it was a damn hammer. I now have a love hate relationship with the 260. I think they are to "Picky" for my taste. I now have a 6.5 Creedmoor that I am getting rung out and it looks like it will be a good shooter.

Looking forward to the new sight and meeting some of you guys. Unlike most of you I am on the down hill side of my shooting carrier. I used to shoot the D&L shoots in Gillette Wyoming and a couple of the Sniper Hide matches. But I am pushing 70 now so I have slowed down a bit but did shoot the Wyoming Tactical match this year with my son in law. I had to get in shape since its cross country and at around 5000ft and in July and hot plus you pack everything with you!!  We finished 10th with him dragging my old ass over hill an dale. Ha


Sounds like you're in better shape than I am!!  LOL

Hope to see you at some of the matches, it sounds like you've got a great setup there!
Every time you make a typo, the errorists win.
 

Re: Cheapest Hammer in your collection
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2015, 07:44:19 PM »
 

Kanem

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Stanley 21oz wood handle vibrates horrible.  Does having 3 hammers constitute a collection.  I don't own a gun that I would consider cheap.  Mk
 

Re: Cheapest Hammer in your collection
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2015, 08:06:43 PM »
 

Jeff M

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Stanley 21oz wood handle vibrates horrible.  Does having 3 hammers constitute a collection.  I don't own a gun that I would consider cheap.  Mk


LOL   This was a thread from another forum that was imported so that 29aholic and I could finish our discussion.  ;)  I just brought the same thread title over (Wasn't me that started that one).
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Re: Cheapest Hammer in your collection
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2015, 09:27:34 PM »
 

Alpine

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For me it's a Remington 700 SPS Tactical in 223/20" that was rechambered to a 223AI.  I bought it as a barreled action from a guy in Alaska who had it rechambered there localy to a 223 Ackley Improved on the factory barrel.  Came with a Murphy Precision 20-moa rail and CG Jackson two-stage trigger.  I dropped the barreled action into a HS Precission (Remington 5R) stock I had sitting around.  Put an Atlas bipod on on it and started shooting some generic 55-gr loads just to site in thescope and try it out.  Then switched to Factory Lapua 69-gr Scenar ammo, and it amazes me how accurate it is everytime I shoot it.  I bought several hundred rounds, and just fireforming the brass for my Custom Rem 700 223AI build that I'm currntly waiting for my Gunsmith to start on.
  I've swapped several scopes through this rifle, and currently running a S&B 4-16x50 PM II, which has increased the value 4X.
  Just shot this rifle yesterday, and had no problem repeatedly hitting a reactive steel prairie dog target at 500-yards.